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	<title>Comments on: England, a constitutional conundrum</title>
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	<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/</link>
	<description>Blog on all things politics from Labour MP Andrew Gwynne</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:50:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Barry (The Elder)</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-214</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry (The Elder)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-214</guid>
		<description>Well Andrew how do you feel that I as an Englishman living in England have only one vote that being for the UK Govt, yet our &quot;Celtic&quot; neighbours are allowed two bights of the political cherry. I want to vote in an election that produces a govt that decides what is best for England, that would have to be an English Parliament, I can not trust the British Govt to look after the interests of England, if they did they would give England a seat on the British Isles council, the British Govt caved in to the EU farming requests thus putting English farmers at risk ( I beleive English farmers are still waiting for EU grants via the British Govt) the Scots farmers did not have this problem because they had thier own representative in the EU.

In closing may I thank you for the debate on England, at least one MP can see the injustices that England have</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Andrew how do you feel that I as an Englishman living in England have only one vote that being for the UK Govt, yet our &#8220;Celtic&#8221; neighbours are allowed two bights of the political cherry. I want to vote in an election that produces a govt that decides what is best for England, that would have to be an English Parliament, I can not trust the British Govt to look after the interests of England, if they did they would give England a seat on the British Isles council, the British Govt caved in to the EU farming requests thus putting English farmers at risk ( I beleive English farmers are still waiting for EU grants via the British Govt) the Scots farmers did not have this problem because they had thier own representative in the EU.</p>
<p>In closing may I thank you for the debate on England, at least one MP can see the injustices that England have</p>
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		<title>By: Linda Thomas</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-211</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-211</guid>
		<description>I quite agree with Toque. If we leave it to the politicians and self selecting &#039;leaders&#039;, we will get what they want and not what we want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I quite agree with Toque. If we leave it to the politicians and self selecting &#8216;leaders&#8217;, we will get what they want and not what we want.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Gwynne</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Gwynne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:10:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-210</guid>
		<description>No that&#039;s right, it is purely about which party (or parties) can command a majority in the House of Commons.  If one or more parties can, then they are asked to form a Government.  If no party can command a majority, and no coalition can be formed, then there are two alternatives: 1) the previous Government remains in office as a minority administration until it falls or 2) the Opposition is called upon to form a minority government possibly on the basis they won more seats, again governing until it falls. Either way, there would probably be a fresh election fairly soon. 

I&#039;m not sure I would go as far as to call the scenario set out in your post as a crisis, but such a situation would certainly highlight the English anomaly remaining in the UK constitution post-devolution in a way it hasn&#039;t yet. It could well act as the impetus for proposals from all main parties for something to be done about it, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No that&#8217;s right, it is purely about which party (or parties) can command a majority in the House of Commons.  If one or more parties can, then they are asked to form a Government.  If no party can command a majority, and no coalition can be formed, then there are two alternatives: 1) the previous Government remains in office as a minority administration until it falls or 2) the Opposition is called upon to form a minority government possibly on the basis they won more seats, again governing until it falls. Either way, there would probably be a fresh election fairly soon. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I would go as far as to call the scenario set out in your post as a crisis, but such a situation would certainly highlight the English anomaly remaining in the UK constitution post-devolution in a way it hasn&#8217;t yet. It could well act as the impetus for proposals from all main parties for something to be done about it, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Gwynne</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Gwynne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-209</guid>
		<description>Glad you like it.  It is good to engage in debate.  Life would be boring if we all agreed and didn&#039;t have different viewpoints and perspectives.  When I agreed to do some blogging for Think Politics, I said I wanted to do so not just to be able to platform my own ideas, thoughts and views; but to create lively discussion... hope I can keep it up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad you like it.  It is good to engage in debate.  Life would be boring if we all agreed and didn&#8217;t have different viewpoints and perspectives.  When I agreed to do some blogging for Think Politics, I said I wanted to do so not just to be able to platform my own ideas, thoughts and views; but to create lively discussion&#8230; hope I can keep it up!</p>
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		<title>By: Toque</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-204</link>
		<dc:creator>Toque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-204</guid>
		<description>Thanks, it&#039;s interesting to get an MP&#039;s perspective.

First Past the Post isn&#039;t about the number of votes, it&#039;s about the number of seats.  As you are probably aware the Tories got the plurality of votes in England at the last election, but Labour handsomely won more seats.  So the number of votes is something of an irrelevance.

A minority Labour Government that relied on Scottish and Welsh votes to govern England would surely be in the realms of a constitutional crisis.  I don&#039;t think it would work.  There would have to be another election if an alternative government couldn&#039;t be cobbled together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, it&#8217;s interesting to get an MP&#8217;s perspective.</p>
<p>First Past the Post isn&#8217;t about the number of votes, it&#8217;s about the number of seats.  As you are probably aware the Tories got the plurality of votes in England at the last election, but Labour handsomely won more seats.  So the number of votes is something of an irrelevance.</p>
<p>A minority Labour Government that relied on Scottish and Welsh votes to govern England would surely be in the realms of a constitutional crisis.  I don&#8217;t think it would work.  There would have to be another election if an alternative government couldn&#8217;t be cobbled together.</p>
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		<title>By: Solomon Goosen</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-203</link>
		<dc:creator>Solomon Goosen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-203</guid>
		<description>It is indeed refreshing... this is what politics should be about, real debate.  Excellent blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is indeed refreshing&#8230; this is what politics should be about, real debate.  Excellent blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Gwynne</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-202</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Gwynne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-202</guid>
		<description>Under the current political arrangements it is for the party/parties which can command a majority in the House of Commons who would be asked to form the United Kingdom Government by the Queen.  The UK Government is, as we know, currently responsible for all the England-only ministries, as well as those government departments whose remit covers the whole of the United Kingdom.  Any possible coalition government would probably have secured a majority of votes in England anyway (when their respective votes are combined), though it is quite possible a minority administration may not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Under the current political arrangements it is for the party/parties which can command a majority in the House of Commons who would be asked to form the United Kingdom Government by the Queen.  The UK Government is, as we know, currently responsible for all the England-only ministries, as well as those government departments whose remit covers the whole of the United Kingdom.  Any possible coalition government would probably have secured a majority of votes in England anyway (when their respective votes are combined), though it is quite possible a minority administration may not.</p>
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		<title>By: Toque</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-201</link>
		<dc:creator>Toque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-201</guid>
		<description>Andrew,

What do you think Labour would do in the event of a hung parliament in which the Tories had the majority of seats in England but were unable to form a UK Government because of their lack of Scottish and Welsh MPs?

Do you think Labour would ignore England and attempt to form a coalition with another party irrespective of the fact that it was the Tory Party that had the stronger democratic mandate for England?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew,</p>
<p>What do you think Labour would do in the event of a hung parliament in which the Tories had the majority of seats in England but were unable to form a UK Government because of their lack of Scottish and Welsh MPs?</p>
<p>Do you think Labour would ignore England and attempt to form a coalition with another party irrespective of the fact that it was the Tory Party that had the stronger democratic mandate for England?</p>
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		<title>By: Toque</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-200</link>
		<dc:creator>Toque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-200</guid>
		<description>It shouldn&#039;t be surprising though.  Labour people (dare I say it (stereo-typing), working class and northern people) have, in my opinion, a more authentic idea of England than the Tory shire horse Anglo-Britishness.

There&#039;s no reason why Labour cannot be pro-English.  Maybe Labour, if they have to win back England from the Tories, and as devolution progresses in Scotland and Wales, will come around to the English dimension by default.  Maybe MPs like Andrew, Frank Field, Blunkett, and some on the progressive left - Compass types - will push for it (the Fabians won&#039;t, they&#039;re too obsessed with Britishness).  It sounds implausible at the moment because the Labour Party has been top-heavy will Scottish big-hitters for years, mostly due to the fact that Scotland became a Labour enclave and hotbed for left-wing thought during the Thatcher years.  The English Labour Party may yet assert itself, if only because it must to win back England from the Tories, or because the BNP or English Democrats, or some other party begins stealing its core vote.

When Brown has gone, and in the light of the IPPR and Simon Lee&#039;s forthcoming studies on the English Question, maybe then the Labour Party will reassess their opposition to England.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It shouldn&#8217;t be surprising though.  Labour people (dare I say it (stereo-typing), working class and northern people) have, in my opinion, a more authentic idea of England than the Tory shire horse Anglo-Britishness.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no reason why Labour cannot be pro-English.  Maybe Labour, if they have to win back England from the Tories, and as devolution progresses in Scotland and Wales, will come around to the English dimension by default.  Maybe MPs like Andrew, Frank Field, Blunkett, and some on the progressive left &#8211; Compass types &#8211; will push for it (the Fabians won&#8217;t, they&#8217;re too obsessed with Britishness).  It sounds implausible at the moment because the Labour Party has been top-heavy will Scottish big-hitters for years, mostly due to the fact that Scotland became a Labour enclave and hotbed for left-wing thought during the Thatcher years.  The English Labour Party may yet assert itself, if only because it must to win back England from the Tories, or because the BNP or English Democrats, or some other party begins stealing its core vote.</p>
<p>When Brown has gone, and in the light of the IPPR and Simon Lee&#8217;s forthcoming studies on the English Question, maybe then the Labour Party will reassess their opposition to England.</p>
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		<title>By: Wyrdtimes</title>
		<link>http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/constitutional-conundrum-england-in-the-union/comment-page-1/#comment-197</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyrdtimes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkpolitics.co.uk/tpblogs/andrewgwynne/?p=133#comment-197</guid>
		<description>&quot;All of what you say would be of signficance if English MPs didn’t get the right to vote on it. But those policies were all supported by English MPs, whether you like them or not.&quot;

As I&#039;ve said several times on here, just because an MP is located in the territory formerly known as England does not make them an English MP. They are UK parliament MPs and party political MPs. 99% of the time MPs vote in accordance to the instructions of the party whips. They&#039;re not voting for their constituents or for England.

&quot;There is a serious question re English votes on English laws, but that wouldn’t necessitate an English Parliament, it would simply require a change to prevent MPs not representing English constituencies from voting on matters only affecting England. This would not be an English Parliament, they would be UK MPs the same as those from other areas with devolved legislatures.&quot;

How come the Scottish people didn&#039;t end up getting SVoSL? That would have worked. No, the Scots have, quite rightly in my opinion, got their own parliament back. England should have the mother of all parliaments back - the English parliament.

&quot;You also seem to be arguing that a lack of uniformity is a bad thing, which is an argument against devolution, not in favour of it. Further devolution would create a further lack of uniformity.&quot;

You call it uniformity - I call it equality and lack of equality is a bad thing. I&#039;m not saying that services have to be identical between home nations. But they should be similar. It&#039;s unfair for Scots to get &gt;£1500 more per year from central government than English people - the consequences are everywhere. Scots, Welsh &amp; Northern Irish people have double the representation that the English do. Labour spend a lot of time spinning about equality but the Barnett Formula is a hideous example of inequality as is the lack of dedicated representation for the English people.

You&#039;re a Labour man and no doubt you would say that you stand for equality - why not equality for the English people?

&quot;As for the EU, there was a referendum into the EC in the 1970’s. We’ve been a member of over 30 years. It was voted on before there were any devolved legislatures. You seem to conveniently skim over those facts…&quot;

Well neither you or I have had a vote. My parents voted for membership of a common market not a federal EU. The EU we have today is totally different from the common market our parents voted on. If the initial referendum had been on membership of a federal EU and it had been clearly stated that this was the only referendum the people would ever get on the subject, it would have been rejected by the people by a massive proporion.  

Essentially, our parents were lied to - when they were told it was a common market. 

There should have been a referendum at every stage where the EU changed the rules. Such things have such far reaching consequences that they should not be left just to MPs with their questionable loyalties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;All of what you say would be of signficance if English MPs didn’t get the right to vote on it. But those policies were all supported by English MPs, whether you like them or not.&#8221;</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve said several times on here, just because an MP is located in the territory formerly known as England does not make them an English MP. They are UK parliament MPs and party political MPs. 99% of the time MPs vote in accordance to the instructions of the party whips. They&#8217;re not voting for their constituents or for England.</p>
<p>&#8220;There is a serious question re English votes on English laws, but that wouldn’t necessitate an English Parliament, it would simply require a change to prevent MPs not representing English constituencies from voting on matters only affecting England. This would not be an English Parliament, they would be UK MPs the same as those from other areas with devolved legislatures.&#8221;</p>
<p>How come the Scottish people didn&#8217;t end up getting SVoSL? That would have worked. No, the Scots have, quite rightly in my opinion, got their own parliament back. England should have the mother of all parliaments back &#8211; the English parliament.</p>
<p>&#8220;You also seem to be arguing that a lack of uniformity is a bad thing, which is an argument against devolution, not in favour of it. Further devolution would create a further lack of uniformity.&#8221;</p>
<p>You call it uniformity &#8211; I call it equality and lack of equality is a bad thing. I&#8217;m not saying that services have to be identical between home nations. But they should be similar. It&#8217;s unfair for Scots to get &gt;£1500 more per year from central government than English people &#8211; the consequences are everywhere. Scots, Welsh &amp; Northern Irish people have double the representation that the English do. Labour spend a lot of time spinning about equality but the Barnett Formula is a hideous example of inequality as is the lack of dedicated representation for the English people.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re a Labour man and no doubt you would say that you stand for equality &#8211; why not equality for the English people?</p>
<p>&#8220;As for the EU, there was a referendum into the EC in the 1970’s. We’ve been a member of over 30 years. It was voted on before there were any devolved legislatures. You seem to conveniently skim over those facts…&#8221;</p>
<p>Well neither you or I have had a vote. My parents voted for membership of a common market not a federal EU. The EU we have today is totally different from the common market our parents voted on. If the initial referendum had been on membership of a federal EU and it had been clearly stated that this was the only referendum the people would ever get on the subject, it would have been rejected by the people by a massive proporion.  </p>
<p>Essentially, our parents were lied to &#8211; when they were told it was a common market. </p>
<p>There should have been a referendum at every stage where the EU changed the rules. Such things have such far reaching consequences that they should not be left just to MPs with their questionable loyalties.</p>
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